There was so much love for the truth in the community. Can we imagine that also something bad happened there?
As creatures of the perfect God we long for perfection. We are called to be perfect and holy as God is. But unfortunately we are all still imperfect.. It is sad. It can make me angry sometimes: why we are so weak? But anyway we are only on the way to perfection and sometimes we mistake or sin. We sin as individuals, but as interdependant beings we may mistake also as a community of Christians. It may be hard to believe or accept, but if we look honestly at our community and the fruits of it's practice both inside and outside, I think we have to admit that not all has been holy, loving and merciful.
Concerning an individual I think it was clear, but concerning the community it was taught that we are the church and the church is the pillar of the truth - infallible. Because the Lord is with His church. But why have all forms of the church in the history proved to be imperfect? I suppose because all men except Jesus have been imperfect. Is GH or Josef or anybody else from the community perfect? Of cause not. Everyone can make a mistake and being that much connected to each other the whole community can make a mistake.
Looking for the truth was good, but the truth is not measured by our community's understanding.
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I was also in this community.
I would compare our community's behaviour with ice hockey game.
Our exclusions seem to be like penalties in ice hockey: player, who broke the rules, has to sit in penalty box for 2 minutes and then he can come back to play.
In our community there were several of us, who had been excluded several times and then came back again.
The main difference is but, that in ice hockey you have a good opportunity to rest in this way and you know, that you can come back to game.
In the community you were excluded to not very nice place - basically you were put to Hell. And as we have experienced - we never knew the time when (if at all) we are drawn out from this situation.
Some of us had a happy chance to stay for a while in "penalty box" - in a corner of our common community flat, like a pet, other were cast off with highest compassion towards him (in heart Mt 18:22): maybe he will still do penance and come back (in order to fight holy life and exclude soon the others, maybe me).
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Yes, I think our love to truth seemed to be sometimes even a degree more serious and could occasionaly be compared with a fight of gladiators than a hockey. If you don't exclude others, then others will exclude you.
If community goes on with such a play, then... Excluded ones: let's gamble, who will be the Last of the Mohicans, the true Warrior of Christ?
Sicherlich ist die Gemeinschaft nicht unfehlbar. Trotzdem gilt sie als Säule der Wahrheit, vorausgesetzt jeder bemüht sich im Gehorsam. Wird aber in einem gegebenen Fall aufgrund des Ungehorsams oder mangelnden Bemühens ein falsches Ergebnis erzielt, wird Gott es nicht zulassen dass dies lange unaufgedeckt bleibt. Gott wird intensiv daran arbeiten um die Wahrheit ans Licht zu bringen. Zudem ist wohl schwer vorstellbar, auch mathematisch gesehen, dass wenn sich viele unabhängig von einander über eine Frage oder ein Thema intensiv auseinandersetzen bis eine Frage befriedigend und erfüllend geklärt ist, dass das Resultat falsch sei. Um so weniger vorstellbar in der Tatsache von Gottes Führung und dass jeder einzelne im Gebet im vollen Verantwortungsbewußtsein seiner Aufgabe verharrt.
In der Verbitterung des Ausschlusses und der gewonnenen Distanz mag vieles anders aussehen. Neue Sünden und vor allem der Einfluss von der Welt spielen eine große Rolle auf die Sicht der Dinge und trüben sie. Deshalb bitte ich euch, liebe ex-geschwister dass Ihr euch hütet vor Gedanken die, die Wahrheit nicht widergeben und die Gemeinde ins falsche Licht rücken. Selbst wenn wir vom Leib getrennt sind sollen wir ihn in Ehren halten und erinnern was wir durch unseren Ungehorsam versäumt und geschadet haben.
May God bless you, Anonymous.
Dear Anonymous,
I don't know, if you answer first of all to the comment, or to my original post. But your statements rise some thoughts and questions.
You write that even if the community comes to a false understanding, God will reveal it soon. But then, how was it possible that the first century church lost the right way and became false, if God works hard for showing the truth?
Second, you mention Christians coming to the same recognitions INdependantly. But in the community we were very DEPENDANT on each other. There was very little time to think anything INdependantly. And if somebody's recognitions didn't fit the community's, he was just re-convinced or excluded.
Well, some came to some similar recognitions before meeting the community. But many changed their thinking becaus eof the community. Also outside the community many who seek God and obey His word, come to recognitions different from the community but in unity with each other. Now how can we say OBJECTIVELY who of them is right? If both groups of Christians seek to know and love God and people. But in certain point, e.g allowing marriage, they have a different opinion.
Sure, there is a distance from the community now, but I don't agree that it is neccesarily bad. Some things are better seen from a distance than too close.
Concerning the Body of Christ: it seems to be more complicated than the community teaches, not so uniform, but consisting of Christians leading various life-styles, having the tasks of love and evangelism lived out in ways more relevant to this or that culture or social group of people. Of cause, love for Jesus and His truth is in the center.
About the mathematical probability and God's leading:
Sectarian movements are like the Discworld of Terry Pratchett, where applies the following rule: one to million chance will become true in nine times out of ten.
Because "God works intensively there".
When these sects see itself as an axis of rotation of God's truth (pillar and foundation of truth), then everything incredible can happen.
The Bible is a book, which has given base for a lot of sectarian movements, who all think, that just they have grasped correctly the Bible, just they are right and others are obviously wrong.
It is not something special to think, that we are right, but it is 'mathematically unconvincing', that just handful Christians in our community are right and all others are wrong.
Read my website for further thoughts:
http://sites.google.com/site/holicgroup
God bless you all.
How it was in the first century we don' t know. Certainly, God did everything in order to protect them. Finally it depend on each one self, weather a church remains church of God or not. Certain sins had an impact on the wrong development.
In my experience I had enough time to think and read or even pray by my self. I can not complain of a lack in it. I experienced that there was no roll in this and that everyone could measured it according to his needs and wish. Of course, we also encouraged each other to have fellowship because the aim is to share.
„He was re convinced or excluded?“
I was quite often of an other opinion and fought much for my wrong understanding, for years without being excluded. Finally after many years lacking of selfassessment, the dishonesty became more and more obvious. So I have been excluded. I right decision of the church. And I think also in the other cases I know, the church was right.
If many changed because of the community it was dishonest and there fault.
Hebr 12, 4-8 I give thanks to the love of my brothers, then only with there help I could find to the right recognition in many points and change in it. I regret not having been obedient in all, indeed obstinate and self confident.
„Also outside the community many who seek God and obey His word, come to recognitions different from the community but in unity with each other.“ ?????????
Those who give up everything as Peter did, (Mt 13, 44-46) will share there lifes with others who gave up everythink in order to follow Christ and fulfill the new tasks. The examples we find in the bible so nowadays it want be different. The rich man endeed (Lk 18, 18-30), until he was not ready to give up his „idol“ could not find the right way and recognition. To denial one self is the demand. The spirit is given only to those who give up all Jesus demands. Joh 14, 15-16.
I spend much time outside of the community. But the brotherly love, even it was not perfect, was always a sign for the truth. By far and nowhere I experienced even a little part of this love. There is no comparison in the world, nor in any other so called church, although I have had very nice parents and many bodily siblings, so also some friends. But none cared so much as the brothers in the community did and fought for giving a good example.
Many will tray to get into the kingdom of God by power and without wearing the right dress!
Mt 11, 12 (Lk 16, 16)
Mt 22, 1-14
Quite similar brotherly love and high commitment you may experience for instance in International Church of Christ and in other such kind of sects. But I don't recommend you to go there.
Yes, I experienced also, that I could think something alone. Because I personally didn't work and study during presence there in the community.
Maybe me and others here show everything in too black colours somethimes. It is good, that you give some counterbalance here, Anonymous.
But I think it was quite exhaustive to those, who studied and worked. They didn't have enough leisure time and for that reason also had they few strength to think independently.
And even in my case - when I had certain doubts in community's teaching or their decisions, they systematically tried to convince me in their intrusive way.
Just an example, how it works in the community: I walked with somebody (we used to have every evening walks in pairs), who tried to re-convince me in certain question, and failed. I thought: "OK, they will not annoy me anymore with this question and accept, that I have my opinion."
But far of this. The walks of next days were occupied with further enquiries of somebody else, about the same topic.
And even at weekends (abroad) the walks with those who knew almost nothing about me, but got to know about my disagreements, had 'fortunately' also topic to speak with me - to convince, that my disagreements are wrong.
Being under such kind of fire from all sides, was not very pleasant.
Therefore one, who has never been in this community, may imagine, that it is better for one's own psyche to deny from the very beginning on the few thoughts in yourself, which are not in accordance with community ones.
The freedom to think independently is not existant there. The freedom there is a farce.
I am very astonished about the loss of recognition of my former brothers and about the way many of you speak about the church in this blog and in some other websites, instead of fighting for deep humility and to find out the deep roots and reasons of your sins which led to the exclusion. Only this may help to remain in relation with God. Not the church is guilty but we our self. It is not our task to criticise and accuse the community, although not everything was good. We all where church and responsible at that time. Now, we can have an influence only on our lives!
Similar brotherly love?
Who gave up everything to follow Christ, to serve each other?!
To have daily fellowship?!
Share everything?!
Fight for holiness?!
Fight for the brothers holiness?!
Fight for people?!
Fight for unity in the teaching?!
Endure in difficult circumstances?!
Self-denying in the own needs!
Long bearing travellings and nights in order to meet brothers?
….
….
have you forgotten all this thinks?
You say the love is similar but you recommend me not to go there?
Is it love if you can not recommend it?
Your experience you can see from a different eye, based in the love which presupposes always the good (1.Cor 13, 7). There was so much love and interest for your live that many were interested to speak to you, to share there thoughts and recognitions. When I recognised something and knew that some other still did not find to this recognition I was full of eager to help. It was out of a good motivation, maybe sometimes not so wise but it was out of a good attitude.
… and when brothers helpt me, they helpt me to find the real freedom. A freedom on a higher level what is usual meant in this world.
Jh 8, 36
Anonymous: "You say the love is similar but you recommend me not to go there?
Is it love if you can not recommend it?"
R.A. Yes, this is not love, which is in accordance with Mt 5:38-48 and 1 Cor 13, and thererfore I don't recommend to go there. My arguments against that kind of love are written in my website, which you probably have read already.
You will get answers to your questions in your last posting, when you read about International Churches of Christ (ICOC)for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Churches_of_Christ
You'll see quite similar endeavourings there: fighting for holiness, unity.
Of course, they aren't 1:1 copy of our community. But when you read more about other sects, you'll realise, that these features that design our community's understanding about love, is not unique at all. Also ICOC bases his teaching on Acts 2:42-47. I quote from Wikipedia about ICOC:
"The ICOC bases the above findings on the following scriptures, Acts 2:42–47, Luke 14:25–27 and Mark 10:17–22, which they understand to teach that to be a true disciple of Christ, one must give up everything one has."
Anonymous: "There was so much love and interest for your live that many were interested to speak to you, to share there thoughts and recognitions."
R.A. I don't want to nullify the good things in our community, but my experience affirmed me something else: when we 'walked' daily, then we didn't speak with each other just out of interest, out of love. These walks were our habit. The talks about the Bible was a good habit, discipline, drill. To help each other with inquiry about sins was a habit. It was a machinery, motor response of ideas, that has been developed during several decades. Why I think so?
Only one reason for this you can find in my previous posting. Brothers in foreign countries hardly could remember my name, but were ready to 'help' me to disprove my disagreements. They didn't know anything about me, but were ready to 'help' me to find out my sins, which caused failings in driving school.
My conclusion: this was not LOVE we were aligned by, but the barebones of our actions were our HABITS. Good or bad habits, is the next question. But my opinion to the initial question remains the same: HABITS designed our community, and not love. Love can design our habits, but habits are not equal to love.
That's why also outsiders pointed out, that our behaviour is 'legalistic'. Not because we followed jewish law, but we followed the habits, which indeed may find its original base in the New Testament, but which have developed far away from the base it originally had.
If one is used to see everything through our community's habitual and 'assessing' glasses, then everything is still OK.
Also orthodox churches emphasise, that they follow the example of first Christians, maintaining in their liturgy the tradition of first Christians.
Let outsiders decide, how close are their life and habits to the 1st century Christians.
Anonymous: "When I recognised something and knew that some other still did not find to this recognition I was full of eager to help. It was out of a good motivation, maybe sometimes not so wise but it was out of a good attitude."
R.A. Nobody gets tired of praising himself/herself. Neither me. But I think nevertheless, that we forgot in the community, that God says the last word, and not community. Our intuition is not infallible. We might think, that we are right as a whole, but... We know also from the Bible, that God was almost ready to destroy the whole folk of Israel, whom He Himself had chosen for His good purposes.
As I said already: whatever we might tie on Earth, that will not be tied by God in Heaven. I'll put it in other words: if we get too self-sure, that God is behind us whatever we do, then we may slip very easily and go astray. The passage in 1 Tim 3:15 has maybe become a stumbling block for many denominations. For catholic church, too. They find for themselves justification there, that the CHURCH is the foundation, and not the BIBLE. Of course, this is very simplified explanation, but I think in this way the troubles begin: we emphasise too much, that WE are right, WE as God's settled Church are in the centre. In fact, we put thus Christ behind us, and not as the base for us.
This is not good attitude to repeat again and again, that WE are the pillar and foundation of truth. Thus are we not governed by JESUS, but our community is governed through our own Realpolitik, where beautiful words of the Bible become rather decorations and justifications for our weird ecclesiocentric paradigm.
In my country the habits where based on a good reason, so it was love. In many cases there were also exceptions, which also came out of love. But I was thankful for the few habits.
Sorry, I was not interested to praise my self, it wasn't my aim but to draw a parallel with all the other brothers they surely might have the same fervent attitude.
Of course someone not open to share his personal live and sins, I myself also had such a bad attitude sometimes, feels the endeavouring of the brothers as an inquire. (The strength of Jesus in certain cases and with the Pharisees I understand as love! But, I think that we are already so far from each other in the way of our thinking that it doesn't make much sense to continue!)
Your other statements I don't want to comment, they show that you last many right cognitions, which can not return back by my explanations.
By the way, I did not read everything neither did I read your website.
For me, the church I have been member, although I know, and knew several others this is still the “only one”.
My only task I see now as excluded one, is to fight for a deep regret and not to loose the right cognitions and standard, not to fall into grave sins.
Anonymous:
"When I recognised something and knew that some other still did not find to this recognition I was full of eager to help. It was out of a good motivation, maybe sometimes not so wise but it was out of a good attitude."
R.A. Read these two sentences again: you praised also your own person. And yes, I understood well enough, that you didn't want to praise only yourself. That's why I turned the topic back to the whole community, because I saw there in your sentences connection between ecclesiocentrism and egocentrism.
I would see your sentences as retrospectively 'inverted Ego-boosting', using community's authority.
I think, that kind of boosting was very common in our community. We boosted in our inner heart, that only we are right (i.e. I am right, too), that we are not like robbers, evildoers, adulterers (Luke 18:11). This boosting was not only internal, but was visible also to outsiders. They saw our haughty attitude, that was pushed up at the expense of our right community.
My answer concernig critisizing the community as a new post
-GOD'S LEADING-
As I said, it is according to my understanding not God's leading in the community, it is rather a machinery, motor response of ideas, that has been developed during several decades. It seems to be quite uncontrollable by now.
Originally it might have been everything OK in community's development, but now it seems to be like a sudden DNA mutation, which escalated with exclusions into cancer in our community.
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