I don't remember significant change in the theory about grace, neither in the community nor after: saved by grace for doing good. We should do what is good and right but we cannot deserve our salvation. Grace contains the power for sanctification, for doing good and avoiding bad.
Concerning feelings, I felt rather expectation to change this or that, and not that much trust, hope, encouragement that GOD should and can change me. But also now it's rather upon myself to find such encouragement.
I agree a commenter that our heart/mind/thinking is what influences our deeds and is important for God, Paul invites us to renew our thinking/mind (Ro 12:2). Right behavior without deeper change ceases when the circumstances change. We can see it from the Old Testamet how much the behavior of Israelites depended on the godliness or ungodliness of their king.
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I'd like to comment on that, because for me it seems that even though the group criticizes the Roman Catholic Church the understanding of grace (& salvation?) is quite similar.
I mean that salvation seems to be grace + good works and perseverance until the end. This kind of teaching does not give any kind of assurance of God's love for us. Love is a central teaching in the NT. I think that in order for God to show us love it just can't be that we have to doubt it everyday according to how well we perform and do good works.
Just as an example.. What would you think of an earthly parent who would forsake their child if he/she was disobedient? We would think of such parent as being bad and unloving. God being the perfect parent he won't forsake his children for disobedience. It just doesn't make sense to me that the ultimate love, God, would be such without grace.
More on the love of God.. It must be unconditional and we can't deserve it in the beginning nor can we deserve in the end.
I have a rather extremely gracious view of God and I believe His love is beyond human understanding. Quite opposite to what I have heard the group teaches.
I'm thankful to you for discussing these issues.
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
I feel a bit called to give an answer, because I am now Roman Catholic (I was former in community).
Yes, in some points the "Community" teaching is similar to RCC view.
I feel loved by God now. And this love is a free gift of God (grace), not an effect (rather reason) of deeds. The "problem" is that I have free will and I can forsake God.
So, summing up my view is that God wants to save all people, but all people have freedom of not wanting to live with God (now as well as forever) :(
The difference is that in RCC I experience practically the grace as I described, and in the "Community" it was a theory an practically I lived in constant fear of loosing salvation and being excluded.
I would give here again another comparison, which is surely imperfect, but nevertheless...
Maybe our community was certain reaction to catholic church, and separation from catholic church was because our community was like teenager, who saw many bad things of parents. I can believe, that original intention of our community was good, to have more frequent fellowship, to learn from mistakes of catholic church etc. But as it is often with teenagers, who want to do the things opposite to their parents - the result may be the same or even worse. And that's because they are used to thinking in the same categories, and solutions are consequently mostly in the framework of these categories.
However, we can see many different results of community's understanding comparising to the catholic one. Because we gave to discipleship higher demand. Some results of this were good, some not.
We set higher standard about unity. But instead of building up thus the 'common ground', it had rather negative effect - our paranoia to seek minor disagreements led to massive exclusions.
We set higher standard about love, introducing the strong emphasis on assessment. I see it again rather as a reaction to religious and too tolerant environment, and not that much as a biblical changeless and timeless concept about love, that is not conditioned by situations. God's love is not radiating different kind of light in different conditions, in different ages. It is the same love for ever.
Actually in RCC you can never be sure of your salvation. God's love 'expires' if you don't persevere faithfully until the end.
Justification by faith is more like a process "to make righteous" rather than "to declare righteous". The correct would be that we are declared righteous at the moment we believe. RCC view of justification comes mostly from Augustine who did not excel in Greek and thus translated it wrong. Sadly this teaching is still there and justification is seen as a process and not as an declaration.
Perhaps I have read too much, but this just haunts me all the tine. I just wonder how it can be that everywhere Christianity is the same as everything without the grace I find from the Bible. Grace for me is God's free gift. We receive salvation by faith and at that moment we are declared righteous and our past, present and future sins are forgiven.
Mostly Christians seem to think that losing salvation is possible, because they are mixing relationship with God and fellowship. Once we become God's children by faith in Jesus Christ we can never loose our status as His children. Think about this: My sister joined the group and is really behaving like a jerk, you know not keeping contact and being impolite and not showing any love or concern towards my parents. Do you think my parents will abandon her and deny that she is their child? If they would we would probably think that they are not very good and loving parents. And God, our Father is the best parent there can ever be. I think it would be crazy to think that He would abandon us. He will never leave us nor forsake us.
Still when my sister is being rebellious she loses her contact with her parents and the fellowship is broken. It doesn't affect the relationship which always stays. She will always be their child no matter what she does, but she can't enjoy their company or vice versa if she doesn't change her mind and repent. To repair the fellowship she has to admit that she has acted stupidly and just come back to her parents loving arms.
This was just an example, but I believe in this with all my heart. I believe that God's grace is absolutely free and that He loves everyone of us with undying love. This is what I want to share with the world and with you all.
God bless you all abundantly in Christ!
Jose: "RCC view of justification comes mostly from Augustine who did not excel in Greek and thus translated it wrong."
R.A. It reminds me one of the few words from Gottfried Holic (quotation from certain forum of outsiders): "I hope it is clear that neither Roman Catholics nor Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox nor Pentacost and Charismatic Groups are actually Church. The same is valid for Protestant Groups because they are in important Topics Disciples of Augustine and against Jesus and Paul"
I am in the same state towards our community as our community is towards catholic church. I think it is not enough for me to be against the teaching of somebody (e.g. against community). Even I see already, that community's understanding about grace isn't good enough, and we may define also grace quite opposite way, then other important questions (about love, unity, salvatation,...) must be solved, too. And I prefer to do it as I see it in the Bible, but take into consideration also opinions of others (e.g. of you). Because otherwise I will also once 'recognise', that I am the only Christian and my fellow Christians in Tallinn (approx. 10 members) is the only Church I can recognise as true :-)
For me is 'love' the keyword to solve these questions but being used to thinking in community's categories I face many questions, which are not easy to solve.
According to my present understanding about grace I agree with your description. God loves us always with the same love, and this is conditionless. And we are called to love others with God's love. But what if we don't do that? What if one ceases to worship God and turns even against God? Will he still be in Heaven against his will after death? Many such questions arise, which must be solved.
Nevertheless, I agree, that members of our community are rather in the role of those, who ceased to love their parents, while their parents still love them. And not vice versa (as maybe community would see the case).
I should be careful with my words and opinions and to stay humble and always be willing to learn from others and not to judge anyone. I just felt that I didn't do that in my last post. So sorry for that.
I think that Catholic church might be good, and all those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (1. Cor. 15:1-4), but still my opinion is that there is so much more grace, love and freedom available for us in Christ. :)
Yeah, I agree that it is problematic and challenging with some passages. I'm still just studying this assurance of salvation and the possibility of it.
It might be that people walk away from God mostly because they don't understand how free grace really is and how much God loves them. For me it is often difficult to draw near to God, because I doubt His love towards me. When I am absolutely sure that He accepts and loves me, even though I have failed (perhaps again and again) it is easy to come to Him and to deal with the big issues in my heart. We need some cleansing and treatment for our sinfulness. :) Luckily Jesus knows how to deal with us.
Grace helps us to be honest with God I think.
It is often problematic to see God as my Father, because it so personal.
It is interesting to discuss these matters. I'd like to thank you all.
I thank you, too, Jose, for your contribution!
I emphesise, that this quotation of Gottfried Holic was addressed to excluded ones (by that time GH himself was already excluded from community).
So I would prefer as an excluded one not to exclude prematurely the ideas of other denominations so easily as GH does: with two sentences GH manages to exclude estimately 90% of those, who identify themselves as Christians. In this attitude we will learn nothing from past and will very likely face the same dead end: every other church is full of false teachings and only we are the right one.
I see it highest necessary not only to learn from our mistakes (also our community tried to learn from the mistakes of catholic church and of other denominations), but seek also good things also from outside.
I think, it is not enough just to deal with our past and to mediate upon the good things of our community, but I would seek with the same eagerness the good things from other denominations, to involve these good things already now.
The further we shift the exploration of good things from outside, the more it seems for me, that the good things and thoughts of community will close ourselves from probable outward solutions.
The good things of our community are often seen from outside as somehow weird, not very applicable. These thoughts don't concord often with the mindset and praxis of other denominations.
We might think, that it's up to them to understand us, because we recognised our ideas as good and right and they have to understand and accept it. But try to think about the logic of some group, who is so closed as was our community, and which has developed their own ideas, arguments in comparatively long time period.
We thought, that all those, who are honest to God, will come to the same solutions and decisions as we came. I think it is too much to expect that. We live in different circumstances, and often outsiders are married, they have children etc. Of course, our community has developed its own ideas and maybe even probable solutions for family life,. But we were rather like astronomers trying to explain the things about other galaxies. We ran our lives in daily routine, which was far from that of other Christians outside the community. We became so alienated from outer world, that we rather talked across at each other in our missionary talks with somebody.
It is foremost up to us to understand the situation of others, then we are also taken more seriously.
I study Indian culture at university. I make my bachelor degree about the ideas of ISKCON (so called Hare Krishna movement). I think you might be very surprised when I would share the pattern of their discourse in missionary argumentations. It is so similar to the demagogy of our community. Demagogy doesn't acknowledge the borders of religions.
Jose wrote: We receive salvation by faith and at that moment we are declared righteous and our past, present and future sins are forgiven.
I don't think all sins are automatically forgiven, without repentence. John writes in his 1st letter: "if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ" Why do we need an advocate if all sins are already forgiven? And before this John writes about need to confess our sins. Then Christ purifies us.
Jose: She will always be their child no matter what she does, but she can't enjoy their company .. if she doesn't change her mind and repent. To repair the fellowship she has to admit that she has acted stupidly and just come back to her parents loving arms.
As she needs repentance to restore fellowship with her parents, we need to repent/return to God/ if we go away from God. Then we can have fellowship with Him again. I think somebody commented that it doesn't seem very sensible that God restores fellowship against someone's will, after his/her death.
Furthermore there are warnings against falling away from God, e.g in Heb 6. So I think it must be possible.
Anyway I see much hope and love in the Bible. Let's not be discouraged.
Continuation in a new post
L: "I don't think all sins are automatically forgiven, without repentence. John writes in his 1st letter: "if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ" Why do we need an advocate if all sins are already forgiven?
R.A. I don't see here contradiction. When we think about the legal proceedings in the court in this world, then we see, that even those, who are supposed to be right, need an advocate. This is common practice.
I think L. thinks about the passage 1 John 2:1. I understand, that it is the Judgement Day (der Jüngste Tag). I think we all will face the day and need Jesus as an advocate there. He defends us there. He's there our intercessor, 'Fürsprecher'. We need it there, even if we were sinless. He testifies about us to Father, that we have been faithful.
I don't want to say here, that we mustn't confess our sins, but I see, that we can go into extreme with this. I believe, also L. would agree with this.
If I think about sins that I have done and that I have already forgotten, then it makes me anxious.
Very likely I will never manage to dig enough in my heart, to discover all my sins out of there and put them to the cross. I know, I am a habitual sinner. I recognised in the community, that the more I tried to practice the rigorous uprooting of sins, the more hesitated I became. I lost hope to see the end of my sins in this way. It took away my hope and strength. Furthermore, it was not enough, that I myself seeked sins in myself, to confess. Also my brothers in Christ, my co-fighters in the community 'helped' me in this matter, to dig sins more and more.
I don't want to say here, that we mustn't confess our sins, but I see, that we can go into extreme with this. I believe, also L. would agree with this.
I don't know, that is the reasonable solution in this question. But those who prefer to seek purification through community's manner, I wish good luck and strong nervous system.
My opinion is quite similar to yours, Jose. I think one can loose salvation (theoretically) just when he denies being a child of God. God does not reproach him, but the one does not want to have anything in common with Him :(. And God leaves him this freedom.
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